Ben Whitelaw: 0:07

Hello and welcome to another special episode of Control Alt Speech. Regular listeners will know that we round up the major stories about online speech, content moderation, and internet regulation, but this week we're doing something a little bit different. your regular episode with Mike and I will be back in September. For now, we're gonna try something new. My name is Ben Whitelaw. I'm the founder and editor of Everything in Moderation, and I'm joined by Mike Masnick, founder and. Do you call yourself Editor of Tech Dirt? The kind of head honcho?

Mike Masnick: 0:36

Sure. Yeah. I, I always have trouble figuring out what, what do I call myself or even, how do I describe myself? And so, you know, whenever I'm like introduced at like conferences or whatever, I always ask other people to describe me.'cause I never know what to describe me. But yeah, like if it comes down to it, I'll say editor of tech, that that

Ben Whitelaw: 0:54

yeah, yeah, I think so too. Internet guy. Longtime internet guy, uh, also works. Um, good to see you again. it's been a few weeks since we recorded. our last episode was, a little bit different. We talked a bit about the podcast, how we came together, what the last 18 months have been like, and kind of looked forward as to the future of the podcast. And we got some really nice responses from folks who, who have listened thank you to those who took the time to listen. And send in some thoughts. one in particular, Mike. well, a couple that I wanted to flag. one user on Blue Sky who shall remain nameless, criticize the amount of time we spent on episode titles. Which if for people who didn't listen to the last episode, we spend a bunch of time trying to come up with clever titles that we think kind of summarize the, you know, the complexities of the episode. we were promptly told in no uncertain terms, stop doing that. It doesn't add anything. I disagree, but I dunno how you feel about it

Mike Masnick: 1:57

yeah. No, I disagree too. And that, that person was basically saying that they don't look at the, titles. and it's somebody I know too, so like, I, I don't, we're not being mean here. Uh, because, you know, I'm sure you'll listen to this as well. We're not gonna name you, we're not gonna call you out. but it was basically like, I don't even look at the titles and like, I get it. Some people don't. And I think maybe, maybe there was a. A false implication in the way that we described the process when we had that discussion that it wasn't a fun process. It's a really fun process that I really enjoy. And yes, we put work into it and time, but I think, it's part of the fun. And we did get a bunch of people who responded to that actually saying, no, no, wait. Like the titles are great. Like we really like the titles, so. As an aside, if you listen to this podcast and you do not look at the titles, please go look at the titles. We put a lot of work into them. We think they're kind of funny and fairly clever, and we're very proud of them and we know that a lot of other people. We do get a lot of responses actually from people who really like the titles. So we hear from a lot of people, I understand some people don't ever look at podcast titles. That's fine. But for us, it's part of the process and we know for some of you that you enjoy it. So we will continue to do that even though someone suggested a friend suggested that maybe we could save a little time by not doing it.

Ben Whitelaw: 3:16

Yeah. Yeah. I just, I just with the, uh, about the criticism, it's maybe a compliment that this person and maybe others don't look at the episode titles and still listen. Um, so I, I think that's a, a fair response. A a couple of other folks we had talked about on the podcast ways of funding the podcast going forward, we have come to the end of a, a small pot of funding that we've used to do. The first year, of the podcast, and it's allowed us to kind of, get the software and, pay our producer Lee and, pay towards some of our time. And we were thinking about ways of making sure that we can continue this in a stable way. And Patreon came up in a couple of suggestions. yeah, some folks were, were saying that they paid just to hear us say, anything that we felt was interesting that they, they said that they disliked our voices so. But I don't think we're gonna start, just rambling into a microphone and, and putting up on Patreon. but it was nice to hear from, from people who, were keen to get a bit more from us potentially behind the scenes in the future.

Mike Masnick: 4:12

Yeah. Yeah. Very, very interesting response. We really appreciate everyone who's reached out since, since that episode came out. and, uh, you know, we're, we're talking to lots of people and we're exploring a lot of options in terms of, you know, what we're gonna do to keep, the podcast going. And so we're, I think happy to hear from so many people who were interested. And, if you're listening to this and you're in a position to help us keep the podcast going, please reach out as well.

Ben Whitelaw: 4:39

Yeah, that includes, folks who are from companies who are interested in sponsoring the podcast. We've had a, a few people come via the website in the last few weeks, control alt speech.com/sponsorship if you want to know more. And yeah, it's, been a really like positive response from folks. So thanks for everyone who got in touch. We've also had some. Reviews actually since the last time we spoke, Mike. which is not something we've been able to say for a while. and I've got a bit of, I've got a bit of beef about the reviews, I'll be

Mike Masnick: 5:09

Oh yeah.

Ben Whitelaw: 5:10

and, and, and some kind of, a bit of a

Mike Masnick: 5:12

You, you can't, you can't have a beef about reviews. You have to be nice to the people who review us.

Ben Whitelaw: 5:17

Well, let me, let me start with this one. you'll understand why I have some beef about this one. I'm just gonna read the first couple of paragraphs. It's, I dunno how many, it's probably 150 words in length. I'm gonna, I'm going to just read it to you. It starts, if there's one podcast I never miss, it's control alt speech. Great start. Love it. No qualms. This is a rare show that consistently hits the perfect balance between sharp analysis, grounded nuance, and just the right amount of snark. Lovely. That's

Mike Masnick: 5:46

I have no beef with this,

Ben Whitelaw: 5:48

No, no. And you will not. This is, this is where I have an issue. Mike Masnick doesn't just host the conversation. He elevates it. Mike Masnick nothing. Nothing about Ben

Mike Masnick: 6:02

Yeah.

Ben Whitelaw: 6:05

His insight into the intersections of speech policy and technology is unmatched. He connects the dots between court rulings, platform decisions, and global trends in a way that somehow leaves you smarter without ever feeling like you're in a lecturer. I'm thinking I'm gonna be introduced in a second, but then it goes on and honesty, he's kind of my spirit animal. What?

Mike Masnick: 6:28

Oh

Ben Whitelaw: 6:29

What is going on? Does this person ever listen to the podcast? Does he not know that there are two people who do it? It goes on. I, I can't even, I can't even bring myself to read the last two paragraphs stuff about there's no lazy, hot takes, no false balance. It sounds a bit, it sounds a bit AI generated. I'll be honest. And then I did the most basic of sleuthing and I looked at the, the name of the reviewer and it all became very

Mike Masnick: 6:57

Uh oh.

Ben Whitelaw: 6:58

The reviewer's name is O Mico. Which Mike, let's, is that not your

Mike Masnick: 7:06

That is not my pseudonym. I have

Ben Whitelaw: 7:09

that not be a

Mike Masnick: 7:09

with this. This is, look, if I was going to write a fake review and, you know, pump up my own, ego, I would not put it under my own name.

Ben Whitelaw: 7:21

Which is exactly what somebody who has done that would

Mike Masnick: 7:24

I, this is not me. This is not me. It is a very, very nice review. I, agree that you should be named as well. And in fact, the, the, the point that it starts out with saying that that I don't just host the conversation, it is usually you who is hosting the conversation and prompting me to, to ramble on, aimlessly for, you know, for a good. Hour or so. Um, so yes, look, this is this podcast is, is a teamwork effort between the two of us. and so I appreciate the review. It's very, very nice. But, Ben, uh, should be named when discussing these things.

Ben Whitelaw: 8:05

I, I, I think all of it is true about you. I was just a little bit disappointed, not even to be mentioned.

Mike Masnick: 8:12

Yeah. It, it does, it, it does feel a little weird. Like, it, it is, this is a stunningly nice review, and so thank you to whoever. Oh, mic low is here. Michael Low. I don't know.

Ben Whitelaw: 8:24

you can call your mom later and, and thank her yourself.

Mike Masnick: 8:29

Um, but, but yeah. Yeah. This this is a two person operation. I mean, three person, if you include Lee, uh. and I do not deserve 100% of the credit, so, so please dial back that it's, it is very nice. But,

Ben Whitelaw: 8:44

is very nice.

Mike Masnick: 8:44

but Ben is, uh, an important, important part of the.

Ben Whitelaw: 8:47

Yeah, I, I, uh, for now it seems only for now. And, but no, no, that's, that was one review. Uh, a couple of others, one which was also very nice, which seems a bit more, I would say human generated. It mentions both of us, which, which obviously is nice. Mike and Ben bring an invaluable level of expertise in trust and safety. They do a wonderful job selecting a broad variety of news stories. It's an easy to listen podcast. Very nice. Thank you very much for taking the time to leave that review, kind of interesting visual that I had with this review because it finishes, it's great for commutes the gym or just around the house. Now we've talked about. In very early episodes of controlled speech pe, people listening to us while they're doing the chores, that's probably something that, you know, folks do. we're a quite easygoing, I guess, kind of mellow listen, you know, while you're just pottering around the house. I didn't think that we would be the listening choice for people, you know, I don't know, bench pressing or squatting or, you know.

Mike Masnick: 9:51

never know. Every, everyone you know has their their own. I, I think it is fairly common for people to listen to podcasts while exercising.

Ben Whitelaw: 9:59

Yeah. two thoughts. Do you think we should incorporate any kind of like, gym, I don't know, encouragement, you know, in between sections or, and maybe we should be expanding into a gym product, a, a new gym line.

Mike Masnick: 10:11

keep it up. Keep, keep sweating. You can do it. We believe in you.

Ben Whitelaw: 10:17

Yeah, gimme another 10.

Mike Masnick: 10:20

Yeah, it's funny because I, I mean, I do listen to a lot of podcasts and, certainly chores and commutes. and then I have found though so I, I, I don't go to a, physical gym. I actually every day pretty much will walk, Up over a big hill near where I live, to a park, and then I exercise in the park and I have a whole routine. the walking part, I will listen to a podcast, but as soon as I get into actual serious exercising, I have to switch to music because

Ben Whitelaw: 10:51

don't, you don't listen to

Mike Masnick: 10:52

I do not listen to us while exercising. Uh, I mean the walking part I will, but not, you know, once it gets into like actual strenuous, uh. Exercise stuff.

Ben Whitelaw: 11:04

Yeah. Do you, so you listen back to, this is an interesting question. Maybe I, we have never discussed this. You listen back to us after the fact to see how Yeah.

Mike Masnick: 11:13

I do. I.

Ben Whitelaw: 11:14

I do too, but I didn't want to admit that without you saying so.

Mike Masnick: 11:18

Yeah, I listen to every episode and, and sort of self-critique. Uh, it's always an effort at, at trying to improve and sort of figuring out, you know, usually it's like, my God, well, you just shut up. Why do you keep rambling? But that's just like, you know, basic standard self, you know, loathing kind of stuff that, that comes with the territory.

Ben Whitelaw: 11:38

Yeah, same. Same. I, I, yeah, it's, it's a kind of self-flagellation that goes on, which I think is all good. And then, you know, then to do a gym session afterwards. It's, it's, it's, it's a double hit. It's,

Mike Masnick: 11:50

yeah, exactly. But no, I mean, I, I do actually think it's important that, I know some people don't like to listen to, to themselves, but I actually feel that it is, it is a good way to, try and improve, is to listen and see how it comes out.

Ben Whitelaw: 12:03

And, and let me be clear, no judgment on our listeners for where and when they listen to us. We're very, very glad. Um, I just, that was the first time I think somebody had said that.

Mike Masnick: 12:12

I will make one note, however, which is that I, I always listen at, accelerated speeds, between two and three X speeds, sometimes 3.5 if I'm, if I'm really feeling it. Um, and, I think everybody judged for yourself, but if you listen at accelerated speeds, I think it makes it sound much better.

Ben Whitelaw: 12:33

Do we speak slowly?

Mike Masnick: 12:35

don't know that we speak slowly. I think we just sound smarter when we're fast.

Ben Whitelaw: 12:41

that I can only imagine what people think about us if they, if they listen on normal

Mike Masnick: 12:46

Yeah, it is. There is this weird thing I I, the brain adjusts very, very quickly so that I don't think it actually makes that big of a difference. but if, if it happens, sort of, you know, people have talked about. And I've heard this with other podcasts that I listen to at like three x speed. And then if it suddenly switches down to like one, for some reason it, it feels weird. It feels like they're drunk or something. But you just sort of get used to it. But that's only if it like switches, you know, within, within a few minutes you sort of, your brain, I immediately readjusts again and then it's

Ben Whitelaw: 13:16

Right. Okay. well. I will try to, keep the speed as consistent as possible for the two and x two x and three x listeners.

Mike Masnick: 13:24

I, I, I always had this, this idea that like, because I think people sound smarter when they speak faster, you know, but you can only speak as fast as you can speak, is that we should record the podcast and then release it at like 1.2 speech. Just, just a, just little tweak. So for Lee, our producer, when you listen back to this, just think about it.

Ben Whitelaw: 13:46

Um, I like it. Um, talking of reviews, we, could have talked about this last time we got together, but you actually got a review, passed you on a piece of paper at Trust

Mike Masnick: 13:56

Yeah.

Ben Whitelaw: 13:57

which I think is the first time we've ever got a physical

Mike Masnick: 14:01

it was great.

Ben Whitelaw: 14:02

It's, it's, so, it's not on any of the platforms. It's, it's been given to you on a handwritten, on a piece of paper. and you're gonna read it out and. It's maybe gonna mention me.

Mike Masnick: 14:14

This one, this one I swear was not written by me. But yeah, this was, this was a very nice, uh, someone came up to me and introduced themselves at Trust Con. and we had had a, a lovely conversation earlier at Trust Con and then at the live recording. They handed me a five star review. Let's make that clear. This is a five star review and it says that the controlled speech is a huge part of our trust and safety team keeping up on the news and legislation that affects our work. And I should note this is a person who works in trust and safety for, a relatively new startup, an up, up, and coming startup and says it definitely helps us with our work where we're often playing the role of the third parent. of the online world and notes that Spotify has no reviews. You can rate a podcast, but you can't review it. So saying, keep it up. We appreciate it. and also this does include a literary reference

Ben Whitelaw: 15:11

Mm.

Mike Masnick: 15:12

if you can find it.

Ben Whitelaw: 15:14

I already Googled. I've already

Mike Masnick: 15:16

You cheated. You cheated.

Ben Whitelaw: 15:19

I had a guess. I haven't read this book, but I know that the third parent is, uh, a fiction, a piece of fiction. have you read it? Did you know

Mike Masnick: 15:29

did, I did not, but I assumed because that was the only thing that reading this where you're like, what is that first, you know, just gave me a second to pause. So what is the book? What is it?

Ben Whitelaw: 15:38

it's a book by, catalog Thought and Elias Withrow,

Mike Masnick: 15:43

Okay.

Ben Whitelaw: 15:43

um, which is, it looks from the kind of description, like a like kind of horror thriller. And it sounds quite creepy actually. It's, it, the, the Amazon kind of synopsis says that it starts with a knock at the door. it's about a young guy called Jack. I don't really, I don't really know if it's something I would read,

Mike Masnick: 16:04

Okay,

Ben Whitelaw: 16:05

but it's,

Mike Masnick: 16:06

But there is, there is a literary

Ben Whitelaw: 16:08

all the same.

Mike Masnick: 16:08

we appreciate that. And, and I'll just close it out that there is a PS with the review, which is that, my handwriting sucks. It really does. So my wife wrote this for me, so

Ben Whitelaw: 16:19

So thank you to both the reviewer and, their wife. that's very kind of you to send that in in person. Um, yeah, if you are thinking about. Giving us a review, which we really hope you are. It is faster and more helpful if you submit one online, but we will also take physical ones, at conferences, including Trustcom, where we'll almost certainly be next year. thanks everyone for that.

Mike Masnick: 16:44

Yes, but, but make sure you mention Ben

Ben Whitelaw: 16:47

Yeah, please. Um, if I'm still in, if I'm still doing this by next year, um, no, we're, we're, so we've. Talked a bit about our last Today is really about answering listeners questions. And we had flagged in a couple of episodes ago, we were keen to hear from listeners and very open to answering questions that maybe we haven't touched on or, got round to, to answering. And we were lucky to have a whole tranche of questions come in and we're gonna spend a bit of time just kind of going back and forth on them. Uh, yeah, is there anything that you are, nervous that's gonna come up? Mike, are you, are were you concerned about that? You might get asked about, I don't know how old you are or how, how Long Tech Dirt has been, publishing for.

Mike Masnick: 17:33

Oh God. Uh, no. I'm, I'm, pretty open on this stuff.

Ben Whitelaw: 17:38

Yeah, but the questions, the questions are nice. So maybe we'll get started with, uh, with one from a Blue sky user called hybrid havoc. a bunch of these have come in from blues, sky, some via email, some via our website. Um, they say, did you start with a really long list of platforms and their post prompts. Which is a reference to how we usually start the episode. If so, how many more are on the list? and if not, is there a process of picking or is it just whatever comes to mind, which is,

Mike Masnick: 18:07

It's a good question.

Ben Whitelaw: 18:08

it's a very good question. How does it normally work?

Mike Masnick: 18:11

Uh, it normally these days it works that, uh, a few minutes before we're about to start recording, one of us goes. Oh crap. We haven't, we don't have a prompt then we scramble. Uh, I think early on when we started this idea of opening each episode with a, you know, originally it was a social media prompt. we did not think that through very carefully, and the fact that we were going to run outta of, of prompts very quick. so we did early on, we did put together a list. We had a list of maybe 15 or so. And then once we ran through that, we occasionally will suddenly come up with a few ideas, but generally speaking, we forget about it until just before we're about to record, and then suddenly we scramble. Occasionally we'll have things where it'll be like a reference to something that we're talking about that week, and we'll say, oh yeah, like let's just use that prompt. And we've gotten, I would say, a little bit more liberal in what we count as a prompt,

Ben Whitelaw: 19:08

Yeah.

Mike Masnick: 19:08

because I think early on it was very specifically like some sort of input. You know, user generated, prompt system, and now we're just like a motto, something they say on their website, something. But we will, I mean, there are days where we'll spend, you know, maybe 10 minutes or so, like both you and I like scrolling through our phones, like every app we have on the phone. Do, do any of these have a prompt we could use? So it is not, it is not, that. Careful or,

Ben Whitelaw: 19:39

No,

Mike Masnick: 19:39

or thoughtfully put together.

Ben Whitelaw: 19:41

no. And I think we're at the stage now where we are also. this is very kind of in the weeds, but we haven't ever captured or written down which episodes have which prompts, so we don't really know which ones have been used.

Mike Masnick: 19:55

we started

Ben Whitelaw: 19:56

of do. Yeah.

Mike Masnick: 19:57

not entirely true. Like in our spreadsheet for the first, six or eight months. I think we did, we were pretty, I mean, no, let's be clear. You were very good at keeping track of which prompts we used. It is possible we've reused some, but I don't think we really have.

Ben Whitelaw: 20:14

it's, yeah, there's a few that I'm, thinking of that we might have reused, but we've done a pretty good job considering we've been doing this for 18

Mike Masnick: 20:21

and I think we found, we found some, some unique ones and we've had some fun with it. you know, the fun for me is always when we have guest host as well, where then, you know, if they're not necessarily a regular listener or didn't even consider, like explaining to them the whole opening prompt thing and like, watching them figure out like, oh, that's weird.

Ben Whitelaw: 20:40

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. do you have a favorite that you remember? A favorite prompt?

Mike Masnick: 20:45

I don't know if I do.

Ben Whitelaw: 20:47

Because I, I remember, using the prompt for NGL, the, youth app. I think it sounds for like, not gonna lie.

Mike Masnick: 20:56

Not gonna lie. Yeah.

Ben Whitelaw: 20:58

and the prompt was, tell me your confession. And it really threw you.

Mike Masnick: 21:03

Yeah.

Ben Whitelaw: 21:05

'cause you're like, I don't, I don't really know if I should be actually responding to that in a real way. Um, which I think maybe shows the power of, of a prompt. Um, yeah. Can you, can you think of others that you've.

Mike Masnick: 21:19

Oh, gosh, I, not off the top of my head. I mean, I know we've had some fun ones. Sometimes there are ones that, you know, there's these like random ones. What we, we used Zen ones where it's like, what, what is that? Like, where did that come from?

Ben Whitelaw: 21:35

What's

Mike Masnick: 21:35

Yeah. Like every once in a while when we were looking for prompts, I would, just do like a Google search on. New social media apps and, and there are these lists of like 10 new social media apps you haven't heard of. And I just look at the screenshots of each one to see if they have a, have some sort of weird prompt. but, you know, yeah, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I think I also like the sort of fun ones where it's, it's not social media where there are things like, Uber or, you know, one of the, um. task services or something like that where, where it's just a little bit unique and a little bit different.

Ben Whitelaw: 22:09

I think this is a, challenge for our listeners. if there are any apps or prompts for any kind of online services that you think we should be using, get in touch with us podcast@controlspeech.com. or go via the website, ctl or speech.com. We'd love to get some more inputs on this. and start. In September with a whole tranche of fresh prompts.

Mike Masnick: 22:31

Yeah.

Ben Whitelaw: 22:32

yeah, give us your favorites. Um, we got a kind of secondary question from a different, person that actually asked, have any platforms or companies responded to their mention in the intro

Mike Masnick: 22:41

Oh.

Ben Whitelaw: 22:42

which is interesting question. Somebody else separately asked like, are these not sponsored?

Mike Masnick: 22:47

Yeah, I was gonna say, I, I was actually just about to say if somebody wants to sponsor the, the opening prompt, like I think we could do that.

Ben Whitelaw: 22:55

yeah, yeah, for sure. we could have your prompt on the podcast every week, should you wish. Um, We are not, Close to any commercial ideas, that's fair to say. Um, but no, I don't think, no, no companies have responded.

Mike Masnick: 23:12

I don't, I don't think we've ever heard from someone who was like, Hey, you use my prompt. I mean, you know, I don't think, like, I don't think anyone that meta is gonna be like, oh, you, you use the prompt from meta from Facebook or whatever.

Ben Whitelaw: 23:24

No, I like the idea that there's a kind of copywriter or a, or a kind of junior ux designer at a mid-size platform who listens to the podcast and then, hears us, repeating the, the six words of copy that they spent hours and hours refining and signing off. I'd like to think that that person would have a flicker of a smile across their face, but that's

Mike Masnick: 23:45

We, we haven't heard about it.

Ben Whitelaw: 23:47

We haven't heard about it. Um, yeah. Okay. a related question to prompts is, about the kind of how we build out each episode is how do you balance mainstream coverage, with more niche and international stories?

Mike Masnick: 24:01

Yeah.

Ben Whitelaw: 24:02

And this, this is kind of interesting'cause we are very aware, aren't we of, of the very kind of us, uh, western centric nature of some of these discussions. and we do talk quite a lot about how do we bring in stories from other parts of the world.

Mike Masnick: 24:16

Yeah, and we mentioned a little bit about this in the, the last episode that we did about sort of the state of the podcast, which is that, you know, I'm very conscious of it where, during the week leading up to the recording, I am sort of finding stories from, from all over the place and kind of, sort of what finds me through usual sources, which is often like a mix of. Blue Sky, Google News, email, newsletters, you know, just stuff. But then the day before we record the podcast, I will do a more dedicated search, and that includes a few sources that I think are very good, that will often turn up, less, less obvious stories and, and like. I'm not gonna list like all the, the, the resources that I use, but one of the really, really good ones is rest of world, for example, right? I mean they really, I mean, as the name says, cover the non-Western non-European stories and they often have a trust and safety. Internet online, speech bent, not always. Um, but, but they're really good, very thoughtful, great reporting. and so I have a few sources like that that I will do a specific check on every week. And then, you know, I mean, a lot of it I actually do find by a blue sky and, and following a lot of experts and not just US based, not just European based, but finding people who are in Asia and Africa and South America and, and following them. You know, people who are a lot of academics and lawyers and, folks who are, working in the trust and safety space or the online speech space. and just seeing what stories and ideas that they're promoting. And so that is a lot of it. We really do try and balance those things. I mean, big stories are big stories and there'll be mainstream versions of them. but we're often looking for, a mix of, both those and, and less, well known sources.

Ben Whitelaw: 26:07

Yeah, and I, I'm similar really. I use kind of Google alerts and RSSA lot for putting together everything in moderation each week. So that has a number of different kind of search terms and combinations of words set up to try and get some of those stories from those different parts of the world that you mentioned. Mike. there are lots of, kind of really interesting kind of. B2B small industry sites that actually will probably would never get, shared on social media in all honesty. Or you'd never necessarily subscribe to the newsletter, but they often come up in, those searches. And so I'm able to kind of at least find out that something has happened in those regions and they can kind of almost go back and, trace the root of that announcement or, whatever it might be. So, I think that's how, you know. To be honest, it's how I came across some of the big stories in, in Kenya that we've talked about on the podcast. we had Mercy Tumi do a, a great kind of breakdown of, um, some of the kind of digital labor, issues that, that are happening there. And there are people who I gravitate towards to kind of find out what is happening in a particular country. but it's, it's tricky. There is, there is a, both a supply and a demand kind of issue. there's fewer people writing about. Digital policy and, and online speech issues in countries outside of the US and the kind of western world in many ways. and also there is, I think, fewer people that probably want to hear about them as a result. So we do have to make a really concerted effort, and that's a, that's a challenge, that we try and address by being very intentional about it.

Mike Masnick: 27:35

Yeah. I mean, one thing I'll note is that, and I, I find this interesting is that every week, you know, we dump the stories from each of us into, into the spreadsheet and well, I don't know about on your end, but on my end, you always find a bunch of stories that I did not see anywhere

Ben Whitelaw: 27:51

Mm. Yeah. Likewise.

Mike Masnick: 27:52

and, and I'm always like, I always find that great. You know, it's like, oh. cause like sometimes I'm searching, it's like, ah, there's really not much this week or other weeks. There's like, there's way too much this week. But, you always find different stories than I do, you know, we have, there's always some overlap, but, you know, we find such different things and I think that that also contributes to, you know, some of the enjoyment of discussing these stories.

Ben Whitelaw: 28:14

Yeah, for sure. okay, so let's go onto our next question. we have a question from an anonymous listener about how we find guest hosts. Um, and how do we contact them? How do we reach out to them? And if they're not set up as podcasts themselves, how do they, how do you make sure that they're kind of ready to, to co-host when one of us is off? which I think is a great question. I hadn't really thought that this would be interesting for folks, but

Mike Masnick: 28:40

Yeah. Yeah. And it is interesting and, and you know, the answer is obviously a lot of these people are people that we know. both Ben and I have spent a lot of time in and around the online speech and trust and safety worlds, and we have a whole bunch of folks that, we know. And then we're constantly meeting new people as well. And so throughout that process, when we meet new people, there are times where we're like. Well, you know, this person would be good as a, as a guest host. And then when an an opportunity comes up, you know, the way it's worked until now is basically when one of us is unavailable or away, you know, we bring in a guest host for the other one. and so then it's just a, a process of, figuring out who would be good and who's available. And, and it's, I think it's worked out really nicely. I really, I enjoy getting to talk with you every week, but, but like when one of us is away, I think we've done a really nice job with filling in with the guest hosts.

Ben Whitelaw: 29:31

Yeah, and, and I think there's, two things here for me is like. your Rolodex Mike is enormous. You know, like you have this, because you've worked for so long in this space and, you know, you're, you are very well connected. We've been able to have these amazing guests, like people who have written, books and papers that, are still talked about years later and are doing amazing analysis. And, and so the fact that we're able to call upon those folks and they're willing to stand in when, when I'm away is amazing. We've also had some folks that have actually kind of got in touch with us and said, Hey, I'd, I'd like to be a co-host the next time one of you is off. And those people, I won't name them'cause it, it doesn't really matter. But they, those people have been brilliant. and they've, put themselves forward. They often have kinda industry expertise. So they're working in platforms and they're kind of, they're either able to, uh, speak to their comms team and reassure them that coming on the podcast is not gonna cause, uh, serious, damage to the brand or the platform that they're working for. but they actually, the kind of process of talking through the news isn't that easy for somebody who's not necessarily following it. In the way that we are, and yet they equip themselves really well. and we sit them down ahead of time, much like we do ourselves, and, and we talk'em through what we're looking for. And they do a great job. So again, if, there are people who are listening who would love to be co-hosts, please throw your hat in the ring, get in touch with us, this is part of the. What control speech is about, which is widening the voices that talk about this stuff and, and when one of us is away, it's a great opportunity to, bring people on board to do that.

Mike Masnick: 31:03

And, part of that question too was sort of, you know, people who are not, experienced, podcasters or whatever, you know, and I, I think we had mentioned this in the last episode too, like we do, and by we, I mean Lee, our producer, does a full edit and makes us sound smarter, and that includes guest hosts. So, you know,

Ben Whitelaw: 31:23

It doesn't include putting us on 1.2

Mike Masnick: 31:25

No, not yet. Not yet. But hey Lee, think about it. Uh, so, so, uh, you most people actually fit in very, very naturally. I'm always not surprised necessarily, but I'm, I'm always impressed at how easily people just. You know, it's just talking and people get into it really quickly, and we've never had a case where things have gotten really, really wrong or, or, badly, or it's been a mess or anything. But, you know, Lee is always there to step in if somebody messes up or, you know, just says something wrong and wants to start again. you as maybe ha happened in this very podcast, which you will never hear if you're listening to it.

Ben Whitelaw: 32:03

Uh, that kind of leads quite, nearly onto a, another similar question, which is again, an anonymous listener who's asked, have you ever had a guest or tech mishap that meant you've had to scrap the episode? my kind of contribution here is the first episode that we ever recorded, which, I dunno if you remember. Was an absolute shit show on my part. Um, I had never recorded a podcast. I think at any stage really. I'd maybe I'd been a guest and, and somebody had sent me a link and I'd logged on. But I'd never co-hosted, never been in charge. And I was traveling. I was in Paris for a, for a work trip, and I was in a hotel. had my mic, I brought it over on the Eurostar and the only setup in the hotel that allowed me to be close enough to the mic and see you on screen was sat with my legs, under the bed, on the floor, underneath the tv. Like a kind of, I don't know, like I'd like, I'd had a, a raging party and had kind of like ConEd out on the floor. And if you remember, the wifi was so terrible. We had these like long delays between questions and answers and it was a real, it was horrible. And we obviously, we were kind of new working together. I was pretty nervous. And I think by the magic of, of Lee, our producer, he made it work and we were able to put this podcast out, but I was so nervous that the, wifi and the tech was gonna conspire against me. We're gonna have to kind of scrap it and start again. so that, that's the closest that I, I

Mike Masnick: 33:40

Okay. I, I don't, I, I remember, I remember the recording with you in Paris, and I remember that we had some wifi troubles, but that, that is the extent of my, my memory of that. I do, I will say that, before we release the podcast, we did record. Three or four sample episodes just to sort of get our sea legs under us. And we did have some tech trouble there. And in fact, the platform that we're using to record is a different one than the first one that we used to record the first few samples because we had some tech difficulty with that original platform. And I'm not gonna name names or whatever, including at one point what happened? we had some issues where we were like losing audio, but then there was one where didn't it, like it recorded me without alerting me. Oh, it was the video. We turned off the video, but it still recorded the video even though we had turned it off and we're like, wow, that's bad.

Ben Whitelaw: 34:37

That was creepy, wasn't

Mike Masnick: 34:38

Yeah. and I, I think I had sent them an email saying like, you could get in serious trouble for doing that. Um, and uh, and we got some useless response. Never, they never really dealt with it. But yeah, so I mean, I think we had, you know, I think it's good we sort of worked out some of the tech difficulties. beforehand, but other than that, I don't think we've had any, we've never had anything that's like really disastrous. We've had little things go wrong here and there, but always stuff that, Lee will fix and post.

Ben Whitelaw: 35:08

Yeah, and I think the, the only, I guess, kind of similar issue was that at Trust Con recently there was, you know, you, you were meant to have another panelist on stage, unfortunately that it can work out. And it was very last minute. So there was just

Mike Masnick: 35:22

Yeah.

Ben Whitelaw: 35:23

and one other on stage. But again, like that's, in many ways the nature of doing a newsy

Mike Masnick: 35:28

Yeah. And that, that, that

Ben Whitelaw: 35:30

it happens all the

Mike Masnick: 35:31

Yeah. You can roll with a change like that. you know, and, and then, you know, even like recording, the, the live podcast, like, I've been nervous about the, tech side because that's now suddenly outta my control. And we were sort of relying on the AV staff, but like. shout outs to, trust Con and TSPA and the AV staff that they hire, like incredibly professional and just totally on the ball. And you know, I, I think they were, More annoyed at me, like double checking, like, is everything gonna work? And they're just like, yeah, yeah, of course. You know, no problem. We got it.

Ben Whitelaw: 36:05

We're professionals,

Mike Masnick: 36:07

and they,

Ben Whitelaw: 36:07

unlike you guys.

Mike Masnick: 36:08

exactly, exactly. Uh, and so yeah, we, I don't think we've really had any. Technical difficulties at all. I mean, there was some stuff early on too in sort of figuring out how do you get the podcast into the various services and, figuring all those things out. But these are like little things. We haven't had any sort of major disaster or anything.

Ben Whitelaw: 36:28

Yeah. And, and that's a question we got as well from one of our listeners, Mike Murphy. he asked us on, on Blue Sky, it feels like your DIY on the production side, uh, as in we kind of do it ourselves. So he said he'd be interested to know more about what that looks like, the tools and processes. Do you wanna just give a kind of level overview of like, what we use in case folks, you know, fancy giving it a go themselves.

Mike Masnick: 36:50

Yeah, I mean, it is, as we mentioned, it is really just sort of the three of us, Ben, myself, and Lee on the production side. and we use the tools that are, that are readily available that a lot of podcasters use. So we're using Riverside to record, which is also what I've used for years for the Tech Dirt podcast. I've tried other services in the past. have used a few different services on that front and Riverside just. Mostly seems to work. Every once in a while. There are hiccups, but I don't think we've ever had a hiccup directly with, with

Ben Whitelaw: 37:19

No.

Mike Masnick: 37:20

there was a short period of time where for whatever reason it wouldn't. I have my camera work. And that was like for like three weeks in like February. For some reason, I don't know what happened, but then, then it started working again. Um, we used de script to edit the podcast. that's Lee's specialty. DS script is sort of becoming kind of the defacto standard for podcast editing. the Riverside itself is trying to compete with D script. I've played around just personally a little bit with the D script, uh, sorry, with the Riverside editor, not the D script editor. and it's, it's pretty nice. We might try and use that some more. but, DS script is, is sort of the standard. podcast editing tool that a lot of people use. and then we use Buzzsprout to host, and Buzzsprout is one of, there's a small group of companies that are in the podcast hosting business. Buzzsprout, came very highly recommended. We had not used it in the past, but I spoke to a few podcast people and they all said, just use Buzz proud. It's easy. It's designed specifically for, podcasts. They have good analytics, and they've been, Easy to work with as well. and so yeah, we, we've been really, really happy on that front. Um, I mentioned Riverside, with Riverside just sort of starting to play around with, with their editing tools. One thing that I have done a few times now is test out. They have video because we don't release video. Uh, that's, something worth mentioning. We've thought about it, we've talked about it. We may do something as they sort of dip the toe in the water. I personally was using Riversides. They have some, tools for doing video editing just to do short clips and posted them to Blue Sky. That was more fun to see if we could do it. I have no skills in this space at all. Um. But the tools made it, you know, relatively easy to produce a short, 52nd video clip of something we had discussed.

Ben Whitelaw: 39:12

Yeah, and there's an interesting, I guess thing here that we, we didn't touch on in the last episode, but. Is that a lot of platforms now podcast platforms are wanting video. it's a kind of engagement tool to, keep listeners, following along. There's apparently an increasing trend of people listening and watching to podcasts at the same time. It's difficult for us'cause we're in different places. So actually the video is just two heads on a screen. And if you've seen Mike's attempts at, producing those clips, you'll see that it's kind of us looking at a screen like, so many of those like COVID pandemic, uh, meeting viral videos, except it's just us, banging on about speech online There's a kind of thing there, which is like, do we do this? do we spend time, and invest a bit in, creating video for YouTube or for Spotify or whatever it might be? is it worth editing? Is it actually adding anything? It's hard to say, to be honest. Like we think the kind of podcast is best in audio form, but if we want to it to grow, it might be that we have to kind of go into video as well. So we're figuring that out as we go.

Mike Masnick: 40:20

Yeah, we're, we're sort of exploring it too. You know, there's also questions around editing in audio and video is different. These tools allow you to do both. But, you know, an audio edit that takes out me stumbling over words and going, uh, uh, uh, uh, don't edit that. Partly, uh, it is. different than if you do it in video where suddenly it becomes noticeable that there's an edit. know, so I'm sort of watching now if I, I do watch some podcasts on YouTube and I'm seeing some of them do those edits and it's really not that bad. But, you know, I don't know, does that feel weird? If, if we have an edit that makes it clear that something was cut out, which you don't hear on when it's just the audio podcast. and you know, I don't know. I don't know what, what sort of audience there is to watch it on YouTube to watch. You know the two of us?

Ben Whitelaw: 41:08

yeah, I mean, some of, some of the live episodes have got a bit of. Listenership. But we're, we're shy guys. You know, we're, we're, we're shy folks. We, we like, you know, some element of. Anonymity and maybe we don't want our faces all over the internet low. Um, a few other questions before we kind of wrap up. Mike. These are, I would class them, I'd bucket them as a kind of future gazing, set of questions. The first one is, what do you think will be the big topics in online speech between now and the end of the year? So in the next kind of, I guess four, five months, um. Tricky one I thought.

Mike Masnick: 41:49

Yeah, though I think, Age verification is like the big story in the sort of online speech space. Now, obviously the online safety act, their age assurance, age estimation, part of that going into effect. I know that, people in the UK government do not want people to say that it's age verification, but, you know, come on. Um.

Ben Whitelaw: 42:12

What, what do they want it to be called?

Mike Masnick: 42:14

Uh, age, I forget what they said. Age as assurance or something along those lines, or age appropriateness or, I forget, I forget what the thing was, but I, I heard through the grapevine that they were getting annoyed that two things, one, that, that people were saying that the online. Safety Act had just gone into effect when it's, there are different pieces of it that are going into effect at, at a staged rate, and that, that age verification was required. But it, it, it kind of is. Um.

Ben Whitelaw: 42:44

Right.

Mike Masnick: 42:45

but that, that's not the only place, right? I mean, throughout the US now we have a bunch of states after the Free Speech Coalition case, a bunch more states have been passing online age verification laws. Australia is basically going to have online age verification, the DSA and the EU and other places. I think that is a very big story in online speech, and we're sort of seeing how these laws go into effect and what impact it has. so I think that is, that's a really big one. The other big one. Obviously is sort of the role of artificial intelligence within the online speech world, both in terms of like the production of content more broadly, but also how does artificial intelligence play into the questions around content moderation and speech and, and how all that works. That's why I think those are two big stories. I imagine we'll have a lot to cover regarding both of those over the next few months.

Ben Whitelaw: 43:38

Yeah. Interesting. I would say I'll pick two as well. I would say, I guess the kind of broader US UK diplomatic conversation that's happening, uh, you know, we've seen JD Vance holiday in the uk. We've seen Jim Jordan, come to to Ireland and to meet Ofcom and he's done the tour recently. we know that. there is cases pending in Europe against x slash Twitter, which are probably being held back while these diplomatic efforts take shape and, and kind of play out. So I feel like it's building towards something. I feel like kind of September, October, November, that's gonna explode in some way. I dunno, to what extent I think, I think when the DSA rule on, X Twitter in that long-term investigation that's been going on since 2023, I think that uh, it could open a floodgate of, you know, new news around this stuff. So I think that's something to, of pay attention to. And I would also say, I guess age verification is, maybe the first part of it, but the broader. Tools, ecosystem that is developing around regulation. You know, as people are being asked to, build in protections against, you know, for children and for other groups online, as, as regulation is enforced, people are gonna have to start to go out to the market and procure tools that help them. Keep users safe, and that was a kind of optional thing in the past. It's now gonna be mandated. There is already a growing set of tools out there. There's, as you say, a series of open source initiatives that are, are coming to the, the fore and that's only gonna increase, you know, the number of tools and, and the amount spent is, is gonna be

Mike Masnick: 45:23

I think it goes beyond just the tools too, right? There's a growing ecosystem of like consultants and, you know, people coming in to do an audit on different services and how safe are you? And I think all of that is, is only gonna grow. And that, that marketplace is, getting more interesting it'll be interesting to see how that market grows, especially in response to the regulatory requirements that are coming into place. You know, are they just going to be sort of. the regulatory compliance function of, you know, we need to check off a box and therefore we have to hire a company that will review stuff for us. Or will they actually go in deep and start making, you know, are there. Opportunities for people to come in and actually improve online speech and, in safe ways, uh, on various platforms. And I, I think that'll be an interesting story that as it develops and we begin to learn about, where are these kinds of interventions actually helpful.

Ben Whitelaw: 46:16

Yeah, for sure. and then finally, and I think this is an, uh, appropriate last question to finish on. Somebody has asked, will we ever solve content moderation,

Mike Masnick: 46:26

Oh yeah.

Ben Whitelaw: 46:27

which I don't think we means. You and me.

Mike Masnick: 46:31

Come on, Ben.

Ben Whitelaw: 46:31

sus, I'm not being very ambitious. I think it means society as a

Mike Masnick: 46:37

no. I think control alt speech is going to solve content moderation and that this is why everyone on the planet should be listening this podcast because we are going to solve the world's problems.

Ben Whitelaw: 46:52

Yeah. Tune in for that one particular moment at at an undefined point in the future. Um. I mean, answer's clearly no. I mean, I don't think we, we should, we don't want to, because the podcast would probably cease to exist at that point. Um, but I don't think it, it can, I think that's what's fascinating about it. Um, the trade offs that we always talk about, think they're part of the system. I think they're, they're designed to be there, in many ways. And we sometimes talk about them as, kind of optional or, or a downside, but like, that's kind of part of why these companies have folks in these roles. So I don't think it will ever end. I don't think we'll ever be solved. and we'll be here to talk about it every step of the way.

Mike Masnick: 47:36

I mean, it's kind of like saying, you know, will crime ever be solved? Right. You know, like there are always going to be things that happen out there and, and you need, you know, in a society you need rules and, and enforcement and that is true in online speech as well. It's slightly different. There are some, some different issues there, but no, it's, it's not a solvable. Thing, it's not meant to be solved. There's always questions of a constant back and forth in terms of trade-offs and trying to improve things and trying to make the world a better place, in particular in the online world. But again, like a lot of that, as I've said over and over again, really reflects. Society itself and, and water society. And the issues that we see in online speech, in content moderation, in the regulations around all of it really are a reflection of societal issues. And I would love to think that we could live in a utopian world where there are no problems. but that's not really very realistic, I think. Um. And therefore, you know, I think part of what we're trying to do and part of what controlled Speech's role in the world is, is to try and shine a light on these things and the difficult choices and the trade-offs, but all in the hopes of pointing us generally in the direction of a better online world and hopefully beyond that, a better world overall.

Ben Whitelaw: 48:55

Yeah, for sure. that's a kind of very philosophical question to end on and I appreciate whoever sent that in, uh, giving us a chance to reflect on that. thanks to all listeners for getting in touch for. giving us a review both online and on paper for sending in questions. We really appreciate it. we hope that, that has been interesting for listeners and we've hopefully kind of unpacked a little bit more about how we, we think about the podcast. This is, the second of a couple of different episodes we've been trying out. In August while we've been traveling and, and on holiday and things. We're gonna take one more week off next week and then be back in September with our usual roundup of the week's news. that's all for this week, isn't it, Mike?

Mike Masnick: 49:37

I think so. I think so. But I'll, I'll just add in if you're gonna write a review, mention Ben.

Ben Whitelaw: 49:44

Amen to that. Uh, thanks everyone. Take care. see to you soon.

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