Ben Whitelaw 0:00

Mike, I do not know how We are a hundred episodes into Control alt speech, and we haven't used the Patreon prompt. it's blowing my mind that we haven't managed to do that.

Mike Masnick 0:10

That is bizarre. we felt like we'd run out of all of the like, you know, mainstream platform prompts and, but I, you know, it was always possible that we missed one. Apparently this is the one we missed.

Ben Whitelaw 0:22

Yeah. it's really, it's really got me. But anyway, we're gonna start this, this podcast with kind of prompt that people see on the Patreon homepage. Obviously, these prompts have got Stranger and Stranger. We'll talk a bit about that today. So when you go onto the Patreon homepage, you see the kind of marketing spiel in large letters. It says, where creator communities thrive. So Mike, which creator communities are you hoping will thrive?

Mike Masnick 0:46

Well, this one is a little bit personal because I think, We are hoping that we can figure out how we can thrive and the creator community of control alt speech can figure out, a new and better way to thrive. we've made it through our first a hundred episodes with this episode that you're listening to as you, noted up top. and we're gonna be talking a little bit about what we're doing for the next a hundred, maybe next 900 episodes. We'll see, and how we can make sure that this, podcast that you're listening to right now can thrive.

Ben Whitelaw 1:14

I like your optimism. And Mike as ever. Hello and welcome to Control A Speech, your weekly roundup of the major stories about online speech, content moderation, and internet regulation. It's April 23rd, 2026, and this week we're doing something a little bit different. We are celebrating our hundredth episode of this famous podcast and we're taking stock. We're going to look back at the, uh, two and a half years we've been, doing this podcast and setting the scene about what's coming. We've got some big changes to how the podcast works and the chance for you listeners to support our work via Patreon, as was alluded to by Mike at the top of the episode. I'm joined by the founder and editor of Tech Debt, Mike Masnick. How's things Mike?

Mike Masnick 2:01

Things are good. I am excited that we've hit a hundred episodes. It's very, you know, it's a big milestone. it's been really fun, obviously, working on this podcast. And, uh, I'm excited that we're having this discussion about how the podcast is changing a little bit and hopefully in a good way, in a way that, people and our wonderful listenership will appreciate.

Ben Whitelaw 2:21

Did you ever think we'd make a hundred? Be

Mike Masnick 2:23

Oh. Yeah, I, I mean, I, I don't know. When I start things like this, I, I assume, look, I've been writing tech for almost 30 years. When I start a project, I assume it's gonna go forever, so,

Ben Whitelaw 2:38

Interesting. Yeah.'cause the Tech Debt podcast is also running up to like almost 500 episodes. Right. So you are, you don't ever stop these things. Like I, I, I was probably, I was thinking we'd do a year and a bit maybe, and, but I'm, I'm glad we're still here. It's, it's a good sign.

Mike Masnick 2:52

Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. I, I was gonna say, it sounds like you're saying that once I start talking, I never shut up, but,

Ben Whitelaw 3:01

It's like that kind of SpongeBob meme den years laid there.

Mike Masnick 3:06

exactly, exactly. Well, well, let us hope that 10 years later, we are still doing this podcast.

Ben Whitelaw 3:14

well let's dive in there because, there are some. big changes. We've been thinking a lot about this in the background. We've had additional calls to our usual recording calls in which we've been kind of scoping out what this looks out. The big change is that we are going to still be doing free episodes of the podcast that will be available via all major podcast platforms, but we are going to be doing a special version of the podcast that will cover, one of the big stories and some of our deeper analysis, which will be for patrons only. And that's, the headline. we're gonna go into a bit more detail on that later in this episode. but before we do, we, we thought we'd kind of recap. Episodes, Mike, I thought we, you know, we're not very good at keeping time, but we could try and do, try and do a hundred episodes in 10 minutes.

Mike Masnick 3:58

Oh gosh. Okay.

Ben Whitelaw 4:00

so, so, you know, there are listeners who are gonna have joined us in the last couple of years. They won't have been there at the very start. They might not have listened to the first episode or, or some of our recap episodes that we've done since. So do you wanna just kind of give us a sense of like, when we had that discussion at Trust Con, three years ago now, and we had this idea for a podcast, a weekly news Roundup podcast about. Online speech, content moderation, instant regulation. What were we actually kind of trying to do? What gap were we trying to fill?

Mike Masnick 4:29

Yeah, I mean, I think you and I separately had obviously been writing about this from, slightly different perspectives, and obviously, we're. Many, I was about to try and calculate in my head how many miles apart we are a across, uh, a continent and an ocean. and I don't know how far apart we're, but, but the other side of the world from each other. but both of us have been looking at these issues in different ways in our, you know, on Tech Third and in everything in moderation. And both of us had sort of recognized. How, there was a big gap in terms of the actual coverage that it would explore the actual nuances of these topics? That they're very, very complicated and you need a sort of deep dive analysis and the while there was good reporting, plenty of good reporting on there, there was also a lot of not so good reporting on it. And what we really wanted to do was figure out, can we not just highlight some of the good reporting about online speech and internet regulation and trust and safety, but could we then dig deeper and explore the nuances in a way that was helpful and educational. To people across, you know, certainly people within the industry who are trying to better understand what is happening and how it impacts them, but also to people who are just interested in general in the, the world of online speech, which impacts all of us. And so, between the two of us, I think. know, we thought it would be a really interesting and compelling and thought provoking conversation, which I would argue we have successfully accomplished over the course of a hundred episodes, that we're able to really dig deep on these topics and, and enlighten people.

Ben Whitelaw 6:02

Yeah, and, and also the kind of, you know, the fact that, I have had experience of content moderation in a very specific form. You have this kind of vast experience of writing about these topics for, decades now. You know, I think there was, it was great that we kind of came to this idea mutually and, and rather than doing it separately, which was, something that I'd thought initially I might try and do and have. Find co-hosts and do something, that would probably wouldn't be as good as controlled speech in all, in all honesty. but you have to kind of do it with you and, and have that transatlantic perspective, I think has been a really, great, thing. There was a lot we didn't really plan for either, right? We kind. to ourselves, we're gonna try and get together every week with the crazy time difference that there is. We're gonna try and record a podcast that pulls together all of that great reporting and analysis and, and really sense make. for listeners, what has gone on over the last seven days? I would argue that we didn't quite imagine. Just how much news there would be. Uh,'cause that process of sensemaking of, of curating the stories we wanna talk about. Week has got harder and harder I think over the two years. Would you agree?

Mike Masnick 7:04

Yeah, I mean, I think it was probably a bigger lift than either of us expected when we started, and I think it's only gotten more and more involved. The world has become a very complicated place, and much of that ties into what is happening on the internet and in the world that we cover, which has, grown to cover more and more topics. Because so much, you know, so much is happening politically around the world that really is related to the internet. The technology space has changed so much with the rise of AI and, and some other technologies as well. And so think. If we thought it was going to start as just kind of like the highlights of trust and safety or internet regulation, it has grown much broader and that has proven to be, you know, quite a lot, in terms of, setting it up each week and figuring out what we're gonna talk about and being able to go deep on these stories. Because again, a big part of the point of doing this is the recognition that these are complex topics You can't really simplify and you have to dig into the nuances. And as the topics become broader and as the nuances become more nuanced, it's an incredible amount of, work and, thought and understanding and discussion between us and others, to explore all these topics and, it's definitely more work than I expected, but in a fun way.

Ben Whitelaw 8:22

Yeah. And, and yeah, obviously very, very, rewarding in many senses. But yeah, to give listeners a sense, it takes between three and four hours. I would say between us starting the recording, planning things out, we do a bit of, pre-planning offline and the recording itself, as listeners know, is almost an hour in length, so plus the editing that goes on too. So it is, a big chunk of time, but we think it's worth it. And the feedback has been. has told us that, which I think has been, a really great thing.

Mike Masnick 8:48

and don't leave out how much time we spend brainstorming on titles.

Ben Whitelaw 8:52

Too much time. Too much time. Um, one thing that is fairly time consuming but is again, massively important is getting the kind of caliber of guests onto the podcast, the co-hosts who step in for either of us when we are away. we've been able to go. Into our various networks and ask some, super smart people from academia, people working in platforms themselves. I think that's been one of the highlights for me, Mike, is just getting some amazing people, some people who are doing some rich, deep thinking into the space and who, who know, a lot of the, the kind of ins and outs of the stories that we talk about each week.

Mike Masnick 9:25

Yeah, I think it's been great. We had always planned from the very beginning, we had talked about guest hosts and, and we hadn't even quite figured out how we were going to do that and sort of worked out naturally that whenever either of us is, is not available. Because, you know, when we committed to doing a weekly show, we didn't quite necessarily realize that that's a, quite a commitment. but being able to pull in really amazing and fascinating. guest co-hosts with, various perspectives and deep knowledge and being able to, rely on that, I think has been really wonderful and sort of, you know, shakes us up a little bit, every week when one of us is unavailable. And I, I think it's been, it's been a lot of fun that way too.

Ben Whitelaw 10:03

Yeah, I'm not gonna try and name them all, but if, if you have been a participant on the podcast or you're a listener who has particularly enjoyed, our co-host, then shout out to you. we'd love to get more co-hosts and, and people guest hosting on the podcast. So if you are interested, always drop us a line podcast@controlaltspeech.com. another thing we didn't expect, Mike, if we're reflecting on the past a hundred episodes, is, is the blue sky bell. That

Mike Masnick 10:27

Yes.

Ben Whitelaw 10:29

that was, that was a, uh, an out of nowhere, occurrence. I mean, it makes sense now. I know it's dropped off in recent weeks because the bell hasn't been, co-located with me during recording. But, the B Bisco bell has become a fixture of, of our recording, I think each week.

Mike Masnick 10:44

yes. Well, when we started the podcast, I was not on the board of Blue Sky. I was just a, a grand observer of Blue Sky. and obviously at some point in there in the first year, I did join the board and then suddenly we had to do disclaimers and everything leading to the wonders of, of the bell, the famous bell.

Ben Whitelaw 11:03

It's incredibly expensive, high, high, uh, quality piece of kit. so, so let me, pin you down then, Mike. What would be your, one of your reflections then from the first a hundred episodes?

Mike Masnick 11:14

Yeah, I mean, I think I, I mean, I guess we've, we've kind of alluded to some of this already, that, the space has changed a lot more than I think I expected in the last two years that we've been doing the podcast. You know, when we launched AI was a big thing, but I don't think it had really completely taken over the internet in the way that it has since. And sort of the recognition of how much of the, discussions that we were talking about regarding other types of platforms now apply. In slightly different ways, but certainly in ways that rhyme with the AI world and how much AI is taking over other, systems as well, and how that plays into questions about trust and safety and internet regulation. and so, I think one of the, Reflections that I have is like how important it is to meet this moment, right? in that there are a ton of open questions and I think the questions that we were talking about two years ago are somewhat different now, and the impact of how we answer those questions is somewhat different now. And you know, we've been trying, in those discussions that are not on air. You and I have been discussing, and our producer as well have been discussing how do we change to meet the moment. And that includes, dealing with the biggest stories of the day, and often that's around AI and also related to the sort of the political environment that we're facing. And how do we meet the moment on that Because the internet, is looked at differently. and sort of how people are viewing the internet and how they think about it. And is it a tool of freedom and opportunity or is it a tool of oppression and, fascism in some cases? And that is a really big open question and one that we're trying to address to some extent within this discussion as well. And so I think, one of the reflections I would have is how much I feel. That the discussions that we have are really about meeting the, the moment in the larger world that we're in as it relates to the internet itself.

Ben Whitelaw 13:14

Yeah. And there's so much more we, can do, which, we'll, we'll come on to. uh, for me it's, going back to the, point you made about the effort that it takes to produce a podcast of this nature. my reflection would be that, doing a weekly news roundup podcast is No easy thing. fati, who was our guest host on the podcast two weeks ago, alluded to it when she said that seen behind the scenes. It was clear just how much we were reading and, how much work was going into curate the stories in the order that we produced them and. I find it very important that we are reading a wide range of sources, not just the usual kind of big US or UK outlets that we, you know, we're covering stories from all parts of the world. We, we do our best to speak to internet regulation issues in Kenya, in India, in the Philippines. as much as possible, try to have a kind of, global majority story and the stories we cover, that's not always possible, but it's, One of the challenges to ourself. And then, you know, making sure that all of those stories kind of knit together in a way that makes sense to the listeners is something that we, I really care about a lot. And that takes time and, and effort and energy. So, I didn't realize, just how much, uh, you know, Joe Rogan must spend on his, you know, podcast. He's, he's,

Mike Masnick 14:26

I, I, I question how much research and reading he does beforehand. However, I will just say,

Ben Whitelaw 14:33

Yeah. And, and his guests for that matter.

Mike Masnick 14:36

Yeah. Yeah. I feel that that's, there are podcasts where people just get together and turn on the microphones. I think that the Joe Rogan experience is one of those, whereas I feel that you and I, I would like to say, put a little bit more thought into what we are discussing.

Ben Whitelaw 14:51

yeah. Bring a bit more generalistic, uh, you know, credentials to things than Big Joe. and the only other thing I would add is that. big reflection, the thing that I wish I'd, known on episode 20 is that, you know, you don't have to find a prompt every single week.

Mike Masnick 15:08

Oh, here we go.

Ben Whitelaw 15:10

don't have to, you know, at some point that that whole shtick is gonna, become very, very tough. you're gonna have to kind of download apps. You're gonna have to really, know, you're gonna have to really stretch this whole idea.

Mike Masnick 15:24

Yeah, well, let, let's, we can give a little bit of background on this, which is that, you know, we decided with, this was, this was partly, our producer Lee, who, suggested that we should have some sort of cold open because it's a fun thing that a lot of podcasts do. Not all of them. but, you know, could we have something that is unique and sort of this way to open the podcast and we sort of chose somewhat. Without much thought. This idea of, well, we're talking about internet platforms, we could take a prompt from the various internet platforms and somewhere I would say it was, somewhere in the first 10 we began to realize like, oh, finding good prompts is actually fairly difficult and it's fun, but I don't know if it's that much fun.

Ben Whitelaw 16:07

Yeah, it's really not. I can tell you that and, and. Now that we, now that we've had this discussion though, Mike, it makes much more sense and I'm blaming you. Okay? Because, because, because you knew that we were gonna do a hundred episodes by the sounds of it, and you didn't say anything.

Mike Masnick 16:25

Okay. Okay.

Ben Whitelaw 16:26

I, I thought we might do, I don't know, 25. That was doable. This is all your fault.

Mike Masnick 16:33

I was optimistic that there were more platforms with prompts than I imagined. What was funny was, you know, somewhere, probably around 20 or 25 when I was like, oh, we can start looking at historical prompts. And I started calling up, you know, internet archive images of old. Apps and realizing they didn't have prompts. The prompt thing is relatively new,

Ben Whitelaw 16:55

Yeah.

Mike Masnick 16:56

that sort of screwed us over. but all this is to say part of the, you know, we're about to talk about some of the new things that we're going to be doing, and one of them is that the prompt cold opening may be, may be going away.

Ben Whitelaw 17:10

Yeah, RIP the prompt. I'm gonna get so much time in my week back. before we do, Mike, let's, pay testament to our listeners. who we have gathered? Slowly but surely over the last two years, we, we have a fantastic group of listeners. we meet them very often at conferences around the world. We hear from them very regularly, on well moderated social platforms and via email. they're a very, very excellent bunch. they work in a whole range of, Fascinating parts of the industry and, you know, we're constantly hearing from new people, so just wanna give a shout out to them. Um, we wouldn't be able to do this without, their support and, you know, their ratings, reviews and all the feedback they give us. So, big shout out to them. Also, we've talked about our approach to sponsorship, the podcast, making sponsorship a kind of integrated part of the episode and put a lot and emphasis on how we do. we've very lucky to have a fantastic group of sponsors over the past couple of years. which I'm, I'm gonna list'cause I'm, I'm proud of them. Mike. they're a good group. You know, we had our, our founding sponsor Modulate, and then since then we've had some great organizations and, businesses including Task Ask Discord, concentric Resolver, iso, DTSP, Covata. Web, purify, thorn, it keeps going. CCIA and the oversight board. And we, we still have in this new world, Mike, the chance to sponsor the podcast. That's not going away. And that's another way that people can support the work we do.

Mike Masnick 18:38

and, and just as a reminder, the way we view sponsorships is that we want the sponsorships to be good, interesting, relevant content to our listenership. And that's why we do it the way we do it, where. The sponsor, whether themselves or in some cases someone else that they designate a partner or a customer, whatever it might be, gets to have a, a conversation with us on a topic that we choose together and we figure out a way to make sure that it's interesting. So it is still a sponsorship. It is still, you know, a form of, promoting whatever it is that they want to promote, but we're going to make sure that it's done in an interesting and relevant way to our audience. It is not. Just, something that, you wanna skip over. And that has always been important to us and that will continue to be important to us. And we are always open to finding more and new sponsors. So if you are listening to this and you work for an organization where you think this kind of audience with this thoughtful, nuanced approach to. Issues related to online speech, is a valuable one and one that would make sense. Please get in touch with us. We will continue to be having these sponsored conversations.

Ben Whitelaw 19:44

Exactly. but this kind of a hundred episode milestone, you know, it made us do a bit of a rethink, didn't it? It made us kind of take stock and say, okay, what do we want control switch to be? we didn't want to just drift and continue to produce the podcast each week without thinking about how to make it. impactful and, and, very relevant to our listeners. And so we, we decided to kind of take an active choice to, think about its future. it also coincides with some paternity leave that I'm, taking the second part of my paternity leave. Don't worry, listeners, I've not got a, a second child. Uh, you will know if that happens because, you'll hear it in my voice. But, um,

Mike Masnick 20:22

But you, you, get some well deserved paternity leave,

Ben Whitelaw 20:25

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we'll be taking some time off in May and we wanted to kind of, use that as a moment to, put control or speech on a more sustainable footing and to come back with a clear plan for ourselves, but also for our listeners. So, as we've explained, sponsorship will continue. That'll be one of the key ways that, people can support the podcast. But. Lots of people told us directly. Lots of listeners who we met in person and who we've heard from online told us they wanted to be able to support our work directly too. So we'll be adding as discussed, a listener supported option for the podcast via Patreon. I'm gonna outline, probably get this wrong now, Mike, we're gonna outline the various options that our listeners.

Mike Masnick 21:05

it is, not a control alt speech episode unless one of us messes up in some big way.

Ben Whitelaw 21:10

Exactly. there are three ways that you can support the podcast listeners, Patreon supporters, what's called the supporters deal, will be able to get a full version of the podcast with an in-depth discussion of one of the big stories each week. This is a slight change from the usual format, which as many listeners will know is. Typically two big stories and a roundup of small stories. we're changing that and we're making one of those big stories, part of the Patreon supporter tier. those supporters will also get early access to the podcast on Thursday's US time. And the free episode, which I mentioned is continuing will come out, but later on. So if you want early access and you want the full episode, you wanna be on the supported tier now before. I arrived back from my paternity leave. There is a chance to sign up for a founder. Tier, which is gonna get all of the benefits of being a supporter, plus the chance to submit your stories to us for consideration on the podcast. Now, we have a regular discussion with, our listeners all the time, but being an insider gets you the kind of direct access to us to be able to suggest stories that you think are relevant and that you'd like to hear our take on. so that's, a big part of being, a founder. After the 28th of May, which is the day that this all changes, that founder tier will continue as an insider,,

Mike Masnick 22:29

the founder level and the insider level are effectively the same except that the price will be going up. So after May the 28th, if you. Want to be an insider, it'll be at a higher price than the founder level. and you won't be able to brag to your friends about how you were a founding supporter of control alt speech. So for that, you have basically a little over one month to join at that. founding level, and again, just to make it clear, if you don't wanna support us, and I don't know why anyone would not want to support us, you can continue. The feed will remain the same. It's just that you will probably be getting slightly shorter episodes with. One more in-depth story will not be available on the free version. You don't have to make any changes. you'll still get the podcast, but it will also come a day later than what you are currently used to. If you're supporting us at any of the, Two currently available levels. then you will get it at effectively the same time as you've been getting it already. Plus, with an extra story, which will only be available to the Patreon supporters.

Ben Whitelaw 23:38

Yeah, lots of good reasons to support us. I'm just thinking, Mike, I wonder if the, the founders, the people that sign up early in this next month, should also give, us some thoughts and some feedback and some ideas about what to replace the prompt with. would be a, that would be a helpful thing, right.

Mike Masnick 23:55

yes, yes. We, we still will want to do some sort of cold opening, but I, we don't wanna be spending all of our time searching for prompts and so. Yes, that would be cool. So people who support us at the founding level, uh, maybe we'll put up a Patreon post where you can suggest other ways of doing a cold open. And, and don't, don't just suggest other prompts. Please, please, we're done with the prompts. We'll, we'll keep doing the prompts until, until May 28th when you're back from paternity leave. I'll be continuing to do the podcast. We'll have some, great guest hosts. but once the, the Patreon stuff really goes into effect, at the end of May, then we want a new cold opening something. Please give us something.

Ben Whitelaw 24:39

it needs to be put to bed. Um, I'm adamant about that. so, so yeah, 28th of May is the big date where things will change. Michael's gonna be hosting the podcast, between now and then. I've got some amazing guests. I'm very looking forward to hearing those episodes. While I'm away, Mike and listeners, you can see more details of everything we discussed on Patreon. Go to patreon.com/control alt speech, no hyphens, ctl, A LT speech. That gives you a much clearer version of what I've just tried to talk through, let's say.

Mike Masnick 25:11

And, and of course that link will be in the show notes so you can find it there as well.

Ben Whitelaw 25:16

Indeed. Indeed. but yeah, it's, I guess, you know, if we, if we kind of zoom back out again and, and just talk about why we're doing this because, that is the kind of key message from, from today. It's like, it's about making this show. More sustainable. More sustainable. It's about kind of investing in, in the podcast and what we've built so far, and it's about doing something that kind of our listeners value and, inform their work, which I think is, is what we've heard from them. That, that it does. do you see us kind of in another a hundred episodes time, Mike, what, what do you hope this will unlock?

Mike Masnick 25:47

Well, I think there's a bunch of opportunities here. You know, we have a really great community. We've seen that. We've seen the enthusiasm. We've seen the interest. We've seen how much people have received value out of the podcast and we wanna be able to keep doing it. And as we've expressed in the past, you know, the sponsorship method that we have, we think is great and we think is valuable. but as of right now, it hasn't been enough to sustain the podcast on its own. And so we're hopeful to continue to build that out. But also to build out the supporters, the direct supporters through this Patreon announcement that you and I, when we're devoting as much time and effort and research and thought to this podcast every week, that we're able to devote that effort to it. and, we can make this into a fully sustainable. Flywheel that just keeps getting better and better, then, you know, we'll be able to do more. And, we certainly in our discussions outside of the, on air discussions, we have a bunch of other ideas that we would love to begin to experiment with as well. but we can't do that if we can't even, you know, keep the lights on for the podcast itself. And so our goal here is really to make this into something that is more sustainable. we both. I'm speaking for, for you here, but for myself, certainly we really enjoy doing this. This is one of the highlights of my week every week. and getting to sit down and talk with you and to talk about these topics is a really enjoyable thing and I want to keep it going. And, and as I said, when I start these things, I like to see them go on until eternity. Um, but you know, we have to have it. Makes sense because it, does take a big chunk out of, our weeks and, and our lives and the other work that we do. And so our goal is to really make this into something that is a, a lasting, a lasting monument to, these topics, these important topics and these important discussions.

Ben Whitelaw 27:39

And, and the beauty of the internet, as many people will know now, is that, you know, you can support individuals and shows and you know, those shows don't need an awful lot of people to be sustainable. Right. We're not, we're. We're not looking to be, we joke about Joe Rogan. We're not looking to be Joe, Joe Rogan. We're not looking to have millions and millions of views. The topics and the way we talk about'em are never going to appeal to a kind of mass market. But we've heard from listeners that actually, you know, way we do it is a really important, addition to their week. And, and not only that, but we do think we can find more listeners that are like, our current crop and who care about the internet and, and the direction it's going and want to understand it in more detail. So we have. two goals is to kind of sustain what we have, but also to grow it in the future and, to have the discussions that we're having permeate out into, other communities and other conversations too.

Mike Masnick 28:32

Yeah, I think, we've made it through a hundred episodes and we're looking forward to at least a hundred more. And we basically, we need your help to do it, to, to turn this into the, uh, the sort of, Not begging portion of the show, but, but, but the, uh, you know, please support us. It, really, will make a difference in terms of allowing us to continue to do this and to continue to bring these important and nuanced discussions to you every week.

Ben Whitelaw 28:58

Yeah, agreed. and yeah, I should say it's one of my highlights of my week as well, Mike, not to leave you hanging. Um, but yeah, that's, that's the pitch listeners. thanks for taking the time to listen to this slightly different episode. I'll be back in a month's time. Mike will be hosting the podcast, between now and then with Great Aplo and with some excellent guests. So yeah, thanks for listening. Take care. We'll see you soon. Bye-bye.

Announcer 29:25

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